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Nocturne and Reasons (Read 14218 times)
Eikichi Girl
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Nocturne and Reasons
05/24/08 at 19:11:25
 
I just got my re-print copy of SMT 3 and I was thinking. In SMT: Nocturne, we see how each character comes to find their respective "reason", but if you asked me each world born from their reasons would've sucked. Do you think that maybe humans are just inherently incapable of creating a true paradise? Or were the humans in this game just bat**** crazy deep down inside?  
 
Also, what would your reasons be? It's an old question, but we have a lot of new people so I thought I'd ask again with the reprint being released.
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0kami7777
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #1 - 05/24/08 at 19:22:20
 
Yeah...I feel that a lot of them were a little touched in the head. Spoilers okay?
 
Isamu was a little isolationist and didn't understand societal structuring or the basic human need for contact. Therefore, his reason would have been very lonely. UNLESS his world's limitless creativity lead to the creation of people, then essentially you'd just be the god of your own world...
 
Chiaki was raised in an upperclass and elitist home, therefore her reason did not cator to humanities. Her world would have lead to mass killing on a wide scale and a place where fear and paranoia would be the true rulers. Nobody would be safe and the world would lead to ruin.
 
Hikawa, despite his evilness, had the lesser of three evil ideals. His world would have been harmonious but at the expense of individual world. However, one could argue that it wouldn't matter if everyone was always happy. But then it would just be boring.
 
Yeah, I think the flaw with all three Reasons is that NONE cator to the importance of human life. All three require death on a large scale or some sort of sacrifice to accomplish. None of their creators seemed to give a damn about their fellow man as long as they got what they wanted, the ends justifying the means. Now, I don't know about you, but I have qualms about killing someone. They didn't even bat an eyelise. Essentially they themselves BECAME the demons they were trying to get to assimilate. Quite ironic.
 
Yuko had the potential to create her own reason but wouldn't take it, funnily enough, which is weird becuase the reason why she chose to let the conception occur is becuase she felt people were lacking in motivation or ideals. Her world, I imagine, would be lighter and balenced.
 
My ideal world is pretty much the one we're living in. If everything was perfect, it would be boring. However, I think our world is too far off balence to horrible things happening, so maybe my world would be more moderate. So basically a nicer version of our world.
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Eikichi Girl
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #2 - 05/24/08 at 19:44:33
 
I always wondered if the whole shock of the world ending + gaining mass power accounts for why people in Nocturne went crazy. I could see a person becoming disturbed by the death of everyone they know and suddenly being given a higher purpose to their existence. Then again, maybe it's impossible to make that kind of balanced world? Also, I wish we were given a glimpse of each individual's worl post-creation. Some more of my thoughts:
 
Musubi: I sorta like this concept, but how much control could a person have? If I knew that everyone and thing around me was just a creation of my imagination I'd go crazy. However on the other side of things, what if those worlds were like the Otherworld of Silent Hill? People (as we seen in Nocturne) are pretty screwy deep down.
 
Shijima: The more I think about it, the more I actually like this concept. However I think this world would crumble faster than Yosuga's because of the lack of self-motivation. It's self-motivation that's lead to the creation of half of our modern necessities and what have you.
 
Yosuga: I think this was the weakest of the reasons created. I honestly can't think of why a person would think this would be a great world. Also, what's with all the angelic demons siding with Yosuga?
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Louis Cypher
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #3 - 05/24/08 at 20:36:11
 
Quote from Eikichi Girl on 05/24/08 at 19:44:33:

Yosuga: I think this was the weakest of the reasons created. I honestly can't think of why a person would think this would be a great world. Also, what's with all the angelic demons siding with Yosuga?

 
To answer your question, the angels and Judeo-Christianity are cast in a very negative light in SMT. Hence, why they are in Yosuga. It's just standard Japanese anti-Western bias.
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0kami7777
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #4 - 05/24/08 at 23:30:28
 
^ Yeah, but I don't think it's so much that they hate us with a burning passion, it's just that they arn't as Politically Correct about portraying other nations in a negative light like we are. It's not like Japan has been the standard of model international behavior (Rape of Nanking anyone?) Also, due to Japan's way of synchronzing a lot of religions, they do endorse and support certain Christian ideas, but they mostly like to pick on the Christian West for being so overzelous and self-righteouss about Christianity, much like how the angels are portrayed. The overabundance of the word "SINNER!RRRR!!!!" comes to mind whenever an angel speaks in Nocturne.
 
But then, on the other hand, they've got Lisa, an American, in P2 who's pretty tight. They even give her a whole "If you prick me do I bleed? Gaijin's are no different" speech during the concert, if I can recall.
 
But it IS weird that the angels would side with Yosuga, considering that Musubi seems more like their tastes. If anything, Yosuga would cater to Satanic concepts of might makes right, while angels/God are more about harmony and forgiveness.
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Louis Cypher
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #5 - 05/25/08 at 02:23:21
 
I must disagree with your non anti-West point considering SMT1... but eh. About that last point you made... they aren't portrayed that way at all in SMT. That's why I'm under the distinct impression there's an undercurrent of religion bashing going on.
 
I heard a point that it was because SMT is based on Gnostic concepts, but I find that to be a flimsy excuse. It's still derogation, practically everybody even remotely on the side of Law is painted in a negative light post-SMT1. Not even Gabriel is immune after SMT2.
 
As for Yosuga...  well, think about it. Yosuga was pretty much intentionally portrayed as the asshole's Reason, NEVER MIND that it smelled like Chaos all day and night. In accordance with being portrayed as the asshole's Reason, it got the characters singularly portrayed as assholes in complete defiance of most of the mythology surrounding them, namely the angels. This is not really a surprise. Again, it's just Japanese bias, there really is no more clear cut explanation.
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SHODAN
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #6 - 05/25/08 at 02:58:01
 
I don't think we'll ever learn if indeed they're being "anti" anything with their angel personalities, since no sane game developer would say "Yeah, we totally think christians are pompous blowhards and we like mocking them"
 
Even though if that's what they're doing, more power to em
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Sir_Asura
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #7 - 05/25/08 at 03:15:57
 
I have to concur with Tallgeese.  I think that it would be nice of Atlus to, instead of so often drawing from obscure bullshit mythology, present a major world religion's mythology right (and within accurate cultural/historical boundaries) and use it intelligently in their games.  Instead they are pumping out garbage for all those "hardcore gamers."
 
It's got nothing to do about being politically correct--it has everything to do with making garbage that totally eviscerates the entirety of Western art and culture in one giant fuckfest that is designed to stimulate angry horny 15 and 16 year old boys who have never actually read any of the literature or seen any of the art these games are based on.  The Japanese aren't really making it their objective to be "not PC," they are just doing what they do best, which is to imitate, and in that imitation, they've simply failed to glue things together in a way that, upon reflection, makes any sense whatsoever.  
 
I think that the best way the angels could be represented in these games is yes, as arrogant bastards, but only under the logic that pervaded the Middle Ages.  A great illustration of the law that is alluded to in these games (but totally messed up) can be found in the tympanum of St Foy in Conques.  Here it's clearly depicted that Hell is a microcosm to the macro of God's universe.  The angels are playing a much bigger role in the universe god created, and as a result, the chaos of hell is actually still within the logic of god, it can never defeat or be greater than his overarching good/universal jurisdiction.  I believe that Michael is actually depicted in the tympanum as the parallel to Lucifer.  Just as most Christians basically confuse Jesus with God, it seems like people have forgotten the simple fact that Lucifer is not the opposite of God.  He's something a bit smaller--a fading and frozen reflection of God.  
 
To say that Yosuga is "actually a lawful reason" is only a little bit correct but mostly wrong because of how blatantly perverted the angels have become.  They neither represent their place in the divine hierarchy nor do they operate with a logic that I think would be the key factor in what is law and what is chaos.  In a world that is substantiated by chaos, the strong would be the only things that survive.  True that's the rules of Yosuga, but its not really the law of God.  In Yosuga there is only irreverence, and one aspect that is key to the worship of God is absolute faith or in other words, absolute subservience.  This implies or I guess strengthens the idea that everything is fundamentally weak/sinful/imperfect and in a sense, not fit for the world of Yosuga (a world that can only lead to chaos).   Yosuga basically is a set up for a perpetual search for order.  God is order--there's no searching, there's no questioning, it doesn't matter if you're a blade of grass or a gladiator, simply submit to him and you will be an unquestioned part of his kingdom.
 
Oh man, have they fucked with Gabriel in SMT.  Newsflash, not a chick.  Newflash, it's stupid to reiterate this image of the "trumpeter" when basically that's Gabriel's job to herald in the new age.  Gabriel spoke to each prophet, wouldn't it have made sense for HIM to have talked to one of the potential makers of the world and supported him or even "disillusioned" him into forming a world in compliance with God's message?  
 
Basically to cap this tantrum, I think the point is, A. read a some literature, make a game that won't further mutilate the general understanding of a lot of this stuff.  B. If the game is supposed to be about free choice, then yeah, Tallgeese is totally right, don't make a reason blatantly assholish.  Give it an integrity and intelligence it deserves instead of swaying the player into some bizarre counter-intuitive vaguely substantiated conclusion.
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citizen zero
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #8 - 05/25/08 at 03:58:05
 
The choice is Musubi. I`m sure i have enough crazyness to be my own god. In fact, i may be living in the world built by that Reason now Wink
 
and for the anti-american thing...
have you guys been living under some kind of occupation?
 
or had your country been A-bombed,huh?
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SHODAN
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #9 - 05/25/08 at 04:05:43
 
I just find it funny that they bitch and moan about these games (especially my dear Tallgeese), yet buy them up like a kid buying the last handful of caramels in a candy store (those things are damn good).
 
No offense guys, it's just lulz.
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Louis Cypher
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #10 - 05/25/08 at 14:54:23
 
Asura: The problem a bunch of people would have with your analysis, which is basically sound, is that they let their own ideas invade the analysis. Take Hell for example. Some people have a problem squaring the concept 'God is good/just/kind/loving' with 'There's a Hell'. I even have problems explaining that one, and honestly I don't even know why I try, being agnostic. I personally don't think it's a big deal that the unjust get punished, but whatever. PC world.
 
I am interested in how you think angels would act based on the tympanum. I looked at it, and I can't quite tell what you mean. Are you basically saying they would basically be the kind of people who would readily take you to task for being wrong?
 
Also, SHODAN love love, it's just the gameplay is fun. Can't I like one part? ;_;
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Sir_Asura
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #11 - 05/25/08 at 16:43:10
 
The tympanum at Foy is perhaps not the only thing to look at to get an idea about how people from the Middle Ages thought angels behaved.  There are other tympanums that depict Judgment day scenarios, it was kind of a phenomenon that occurred around 1100.  (Before that there was literally very little, almost no, architectural sculpture)  
 
I do think that in a way it is okay to bring today to these games--in fact that's a given since we have to reinvent these things to make games about them.  My problem is that while I enjoy playing them, I don't think they should be elevated to the level of "extremely thought-provoking" especially when the discussions people have are completely removed from the generators of the game in the first place.
 
Based on what you can see though is that the angels are part of God's army, more or less.  Christianity as it developed to this point honestly had a lot of militant aspects.  The vows a monk took for instance, obedience, chastity, and poverty are kind of similar to the vows of a soldier.  The imagined heavenly order is honestly just an aggrandized feudal system.
 
Today it is hard to rationalize a heavenly father who intends for hell, but in the middle ages this was, in my opinion at least, probably comforting.  It ensures that there is no possibility of overall good faltering to evil.  Evil is always a weak imitation of God. In the Tympanum you can see how this is reflected, with the hell mouth devouring sinners and hell being the only area with a good amount of activity.  The rest of the tympanum is ordered through implied architecture and a general understanding of the structure of heaven.  The angels are basically just extensions of God's jurisdiction.  Since this tympanum is depicting Judgment day, they are helping the righteous into heaven and fighting off devils that may interrupt this process.  
 
I think when we recognize God as forgiving, loving, etc, we are forgetting that that's really what Jesus is--not necessarily what God is.  God is much larger.  Today we tend to conflate Christ with God, and in the process completely remove any of the vengeance that God possessed in the process.  For a good part of Christianity, the old testament I think held just as much importance as the new testament, which honestly I think is what most Christians today pay attention to... if they look at scripture at all.  Judgment day kind of makes a complete circle with the old testament.  It brings back the vengeance, and in the old testament, if you didn't listen to the prophets, then yeah, you were pretty screwed and you went to hell (basically everyone).  Then we get Jesus and all of sudden all you need is faith to go to Heaven.  God is incapable of forgiving one sin, which is the sin of lost faith.  If you stop believing you are damning yourself and that sin will be "locked" to your soul (St Peter has two keys, one that opens the gate of heaven and "unlocks sins" from you, the other basically condemns you).  
 
To address Shodan's point: Yeah, it's pretty ludicrous that I am bitching a mean steak about this stuff.  I find the games to be fun, and unlike Tallgeese, I can still get a kick out of the story line. I mean, it's just annoying for me when people suddenly start to pull things out of these games that aren't there, or aren't right, and completely ignorant of where they came from (or about as informed as a wikipedia article).  That kind of pseudo-intellectual crap gets old.  It's still a video game; video games are good, and that makes it popcorn for my brain.  If I want to think, I'll go make art or read a book or something.  Otherwise, I am all for further developing carpal tunnel!
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #12 - 05/26/08 at 02:21:38
 
About the anti-christianity in SMT... you shouldn't mix the New Testament with the old one. Jesus is a pretty nice guy, but Yhwh is cruel and evil. Just read the story about Jobe, or take a look at Adam & Eve. Moses kills his whole tribe just because they wanted to party. I mean, let the people have fun. And yes, Lucifer. A guy with some serious complexes. Looking at Yhwh from his frog perspective, promising people freedom and independence. He's just the other side of the medal. Hungry for power, he would be the same as Yhwh (if he could). SMT is not against christians, it's against tyranny. And that's why I would choose Musubi. It rejects both sides. It doesn't harm anyone.
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Louis Cypher
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #13 - 05/26/08 at 03:19:35
 
Your post only illustrates a certain point that Atlus JP is twiisting Christianity negatively...
 
Consider that the best armor on the Law Side is the JESUS SET.
 
Call me crazy, but the Biblical Jesus would 'NEVER' side with what SMT portrays his religion as.
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SHODAN
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Re: Nocturne and Reasons
Reply #14 - 05/26/08 at 04:09:31
 
..it's just a set of armor though, with a name, right? I don't think it has anything to do with the figure himself
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