Quote from Tallgeese on 05/26/08 at 03:19:35:

 
Of course he wouldn't. But like Shodan says, it's only a set of armor. After all, the Messians made that armor. None asked Jesus what he thinks about puting his name on that piece of equipment.   I think Jesus is much closer to ideal christianity than his father ever was. That's why ATLUS is not against christianity. They are only against the strict rules which the Old Testament represents. And the Old Testament is much closer to the Judeo religion. Japanese people have their sins, like my or your people too. But they never send missionaries to spread shintoism or zen buddhism by force. Their gouvernement is xenophobic, that's true. But not all Japanese dislike other nations. And I don't think that someone like Okada who has such deep knowledge and interests in other religions could be against this or that religion. He  has only a different point of view. After all, there are less than 1% christians in Japan. That's why the Japanese if interested in judeo-christianity can get a much more realistic picture about that religion. Because there's no propaganda. They don't even talk about christianity in public.

...Aleph, you DO realize that part of the method by which the Japanese became mobilized for the Second World War was a form of imposed statewide militant Shintoism, thereby eviscerating your religious point, right? Zen Buddhism also quite prominently supported the state military establishment of the time. You're making arbitrary and self-serving leaps of logic not based on much of anything, no offense. Apparently the book 'Zen at War' is quite enlightening on this subject.  
 
The people were apparently happy with it too, the only reason they abandoned this religion-backed militaristic stance is because they lost, plain and simple. Japan is just as capable of following archaic rules as everyone else, as much as Atlus JP would love for you to think otherwise from how they present Chaos.
 
It's not that they wouldn't spread their way of life to others, it's that they pretty much couldn't for a long time. Their nearest neighbor is China. The single reason they even managed to beat China best during the Sino-Japanese Wars was because Japan was basically modernized and well trained, while China... not so much.
 
Meanwhile, on the Jesus front, Law Hero in SMT1 is dressed like the Pope, the four archangels are described as based on Christian mythology in SMT3... et cetera. Considering the angels are supposedly based on the Christian mythology, where they are pretty much upstanding, if rigid, persons, and they are NEITHER of those things post-SMT1... yeah, I honestly don't think it was meant to just be a random namedrop. Of course, it is worth it to note that besides the armor, Jesus never showed up at all... except in P3.
 
Where: A) He sucked horribly as a Persona in practically every way, in the original game he was flat out terrible, in FES he was an obvious consolation prie if you didn't get Orpheus Telos, who is Messiah Plus Plus. B) His mythological description attempts to pass him off as a general messiah figure when he obviously is a Jesus reference (praying saints? Cross-pose when summoned? That Absorb Pierce joke?) C) He looks nothing like he is generally portrayed in a modern times. D) The guy who DOES look 'a LOT' like how Jesus in portrayed in modern times is actually one of the biggest bastards in the game!

I couldn't, because I can't even think of a game where Shinto is portrayed in a negative light either... meaning that I can't think of an American game that mentions it much at all.
 
That said, DnD seems to hold the Kara-Tur region (basically DnD Asia it looks) in decent regard, what with their superior weaponry... But I don't think Shinto is involved directly at all.

To Aleph: I wouldn't get ahead of yourself.  Christianity means nothing without the Old Testament, in my opinion.  Christ's death, in addition to allowing us salvation, opened the Judaic religion to the gentiles.  To cut down one is to cut down the whole.  Obviously its hard to reconcile God between the two testaments.  Obviously he seems to be a different entity entirely, but I wouldn't make the God of the old testament a truly one dimensional entity by saying he is bad, etc.  The angry God is the foundation for all Judeo-Christian belief, so you really can't cut him out of the picture ever.  My biggest problem with many of today's Christians is that they worship this good feeling entity, which is basically just an abbreviated idea of Christ, and don't really address any of the foundational stuff, which is where the religion's mythology gets interesting, and perhaps, a closer understanding of Western culture/morality can be examined.
 
Also, I don't really care what the Japanese view of Christianity is--it certainly isn't the most realistic one because they are taking it and interrupting it in a way that suggests A.) very little research, leading to convenient conclusions for a video game story and B.) YES, turning it into a propaganda of sorts, one that denounces a fairly large demographic of todays world as pig headed idiots.  NOW before you jump all down my back by saying most Christians are idiots, realize you are talking to a person who shredded his study Bible outside a Church screaming fuck God directly after Sunday school.  I've been there, done that, wear the tee-shirt.  It's pretty annoying to meet hardcore Christians, but have you ever tried to make a meaningful connection with a twit who thinks being an athiest is bad ass?  Maybe when you could die for it, but today I think it's a pretty indolent response to what life has to offer/its mysteries.
 
Also, back to the idea of the reasons, I think your idea that Musubi wouldn't hurt anyone is hilarious because it radically redefines what being human is.  It would lead to a world of isolated insane minds.  In my opinion, all of the reasons are bullshit, and the game is most fun when you take the cake and run with it and go fuck with the boss man.  That way you get the most out of the game play and you get to kill all those dumb asses that thought they had good ideas for a new world.
 
To Shodan:  Everyone is a hypocrite.  Get over it.  I'll give you that it's amusing that there's this big of a dispute over /game content/, but I find it really hilarious that for someone who is criticizing another on cultural sensitivity, you are describing the Japanese on a singularly one-dimensional level.  I think everyone here could benefit from ceasing to conflate Japanese and Atlus as one entity.  For god sake, it's absolutely retarded to compare disatisfaction with a game to WWII tactics and mentalities, which even then is completely stupid and offensive to think that that's synonymous with all Japanese culture and mindsets.  That's like saying Germany is just a bunch of Nazis, instead of pointing out that the third Reich was basically just a bubbling over of a collective mental illness that had been cultured in Germany since its genesis.  Why the hell do people in our generation still try to cling to the societal sicknesses of the 20th century?  I am so thrilled to see that we can regurgitate the cut and paste bullshit from our american history text books, because clearly our knowledge of foreign cultures is coming from wartime history, not much else.  (Maybe isolated facts from wikipedia?)  
 
That being said, Tallgeese isn't being xenophobic, he's being critical.  
 
There are like zero American games that I can think of that would even bother to include Shintoism.  Wait, there are like zero American games that are playable rpgs in my opinion, so nevermind.  Apples to oranges, my dear.
 
In my opinion, say what you want, but it's so easy to place blame on insensitive Americans. All I'm asking is that maybe these assholes read some Campbell, some Yeats, get it in their heads they are not just making games for a Japanese audience since obviously these things are now hitting everywhere that plays games.  You shouldn't make a game that claims to "draw from every world religion" when it simply processes every single one through an obvious filter.  If they want to use the excuse that it is gnostic, then all these different elements being introduced should be designed free of inherent bias.  Most world religions have huge overarching connections, yet I am continually disappointed when I encounter huge disconnects between these when the pieces are just waiting to be connected.  
 

Hey! Lay off of SHODAN. She knows me far better than anyone else here, half a decade in fact. She has no reason not to call me a hypocrite if she sees me as one, it's not like it's an undetestable trait that I specifically strive not to embody. She has no damn reason to want to have that.
 
SHODAN also knows that what I say about Atlus Japan I would almost certainly say about Japan in general, with unstated exceptions if I could ever find them of course. Popular Japanese culture is RIFE with bastardizations of Judeo-Christianity. The reason I harp on Atlus Japan so much though, is two-fold, which I think is what makes the difference:
 
1) I am irritated not only in that they do it, but in that Kaneko has said himself that the games emphasize free choice between the sides. I just don't think it's free choice when some of the choices are deliberately loaded by the developers to appear bad. It's like indoctrination, is it really free choice to do something if you're indoctrinated into it?
 
2) Somebody in Atlus Japan was asked if YHVH in SMT was the Judeo-Christian God. I believe it was Okada. He LIED when he said that YHVH in SMT was an amalgamation of the father gods of various religions. That honestly just reeks of a lie, because, for example, various other father gods, most notably Odin, appear in SMT and they act NOTHING like what YHVH is portrayed as. It just seems like a retarded dodge/lie to make...
 
Basically, I'm pissed that Atlus is pretentious. I might be a tad less pissed if they weren't.
 
But leave SHODAN alone Asura. I'm hoping that if she reads this she'll understand why I respond in this way, but if not, oh well. I just hate dishonesty and unfairness. She didn't say anything wrong considering how I act.
 
Anyhow, I will gracefully step out. I promised SHODAN I will no longer continue this arguing, and I intend to keep that word. The above is just an explanation as to why I'm so annoyed, and to say to leave SHODAN alone or you deal with me.

I agree with you Tallgeese, we should drop this topic. After all, this forum is about videogames, not politics or religion. I might be a little bit christophobic from some people's sight of view, however I feel no guilt about it. I got absolutely nothing against you or anybody else, as long as I'm not harmed. I'm against those radical clerics and belivers who sip poison in peoples hearts. We could discuss about ATLUS being christophobic or not for days (maybe that's precisely what they want us to do).  
But Tallgeese, you can't call somebody a liar, just because you think he's a one (even if I have to admit that you might be right about this one).  
However, I think he gave that interview right after releasing SMT2 in Japan, long before releasing SMT3 worldwide. There was no need for sucking up to the non-japanese audience. They released SMT3 10 years after.

Wow, that's too adorable.  Can we now vote for cutest couple on megaten!  Haha.

Quote from SHODAN on 05/27/08 at 06:15:36:

 
I like the gameplay! Pretty much it yeah.
 
Okami: By 'influenced by Buddhism' you mean the whole cyclical nature of the world, right? Or...?
 
What you suggest is possible, as Buddhism, unlike Shinto, was not homegrown in Japan, it was imported from China. This does not explain their love affair with Hinduism that has only been rising though.