Yeah...I feel that a lot of them were a little touched in the head. Spoilers okay?
 
Isamu was a little isolationist and didn't understand societal structuring or the basic human need for contact. Therefore, his reason would have been very lonely. UNLESS his world's limitless creativity lead to the creation of people, then essentially you'd just be the god of your own world...
 
Chiaki was raised in an upperclass and elitist home, therefore her reason did not cator to humanities. Her world would have lead to mass killing on a wide scale and a place where fear and paranoia would be the true rulers. Nobody would be safe and the world would lead to ruin.
 
Hikawa, despite his evilness, had the lesser of three evil ideals. His world would have been harmonious but at the expense of individual world. However, one could argue that it wouldn't matter if everyone was always happy. But then it would just be boring.
 
Yeah, I think the flaw with all three Reasons is that NONE cator to the importance of human life. All three require death on a large scale or some sort of sacrifice to accomplish. None of their creators seemed to give a damn about their fellow man as long as they got what they wanted, the ends justifying the means. Now, I don't know about you, but I have qualms about killing someone. They didn't even bat an eyelise. Essentially they themselves BECAME the demons they were trying to get to assimilate. Quite ironic.
 
Yuko had the potential to create her own reason but wouldn't take it, funnily enough, which is weird becuase the reason why she chose to let the conception occur is becuase she felt people were lacking in motivation or ideals. Her world, I imagine, would be lighter and balenced.
 
My ideal world is pretty much the one we're living in. If everything was perfect, it would be boring. However, I think our world is too far off balence to horrible things happening, so maybe my world would be more moderate. So basically a nicer version of our world.

Quote from Eikichi Girl on 05/24/08 at 19:44:33:

 
To answer your question, the angels and Judeo-Christianity are cast in a very negative light in SMT. Hence, why they are in Yosuga. It's just standard Japanese anti-Western bias.

I must disagree with your non anti-West point considering SMT1... but eh. About that last point you made... they aren't portrayed that way at all in SMT. That's why I'm under the distinct impression there's an undercurrent of religion bashing going on.
 
I heard a point that it was because SMT is based on Gnostic concepts, but I find that to be a flimsy excuse. It's still derogation, practically everybody even remotely on the side of Law is painted in a negative light post-SMT1. Not even Gabriel is immune after SMT2.
 
As for Yosuga...  well, think about it. Yosuga was pretty much intentionally portrayed as the asshole's Reason, NEVER MIND that it smelled like Chaos all day and night. In accordance with being portrayed as the asshole's Reason, it got the characters singularly portrayed as assholes in complete defiance of most of the mythology surrounding them, namely the angels. This is not really a surprise. Again, it's just Japanese bias, there really is no more clear cut explanation.

I have to concur with Tallgeese.  I think that it would be nice of Atlus to, instead of so often drawing from obscure bullshit mythology, present a major world religion's mythology right (and within accurate cultural/historical boundaries) and use it intelligently in their games.  Instead they are pumping out garbage for all those "hardcore gamers."
 
It's got nothing to do about being politically correct--it has everything to do with making garbage that totally eviscerates the entirety of Western art and culture in one giant fuckfest that is designed to stimulate angry horny 15 and 16 year old boys who have never actually read any of the literature or seen any of the art these games are based on.  The Japanese aren't really making it their objective to be "not PC," they are just doing what they do best, which is to imitate, and in that imitation, they've simply failed to glue things together in a way that, upon reflection, makes any sense whatsoever.  
 
I think that the best way the angels could be represented in these games is yes, as arrogant bastards, but only under the logic that pervaded the Middle Ages.  A great illustration of the law that is alluded to in these games (but totally messed up) can be found in the tympanum of St Foy in Conques.  Here it's clearly depicted that Hell is a microcosm to the macro of God's universe.  The angels are playing a much bigger role in the universe god created, and as a result, the chaos of hell is actually still within the logic of god, it can never defeat or be greater than his overarching good/universal jurisdiction.  I believe that Michael is actually depicted in the tympanum as the parallel to Lucifer.  Just as most Christians basically confuse Jesus with God, it seems like people have forgotten the simple fact that Lucifer is not the opposite of God.  He's something a bit smaller--a fading and frozen reflection of God.  
 
To say that Yosuga is "actually a lawful reason" is only a little bit correct but mostly wrong because of how blatantly perverted the angels have become.  They neither represent their place in the divine hierarchy nor do they operate with a logic that I think would be the key factor in what is law and what is chaos.  In a world that is substantiated by chaos, the strong would be the only things that survive.  True that's the rules of Yosuga, but its not really the law of God.  In Yosuga there is only irreverence, and one aspect that is key to the worship of God is absolute faith or in other words, absolute subservience.  This implies or I guess strengthens the idea that everything is fundamentally weak/sinful/imperfect and in a sense, not fit for the world of Yosuga (a world that can only lead to chaos).   Yosuga basically is a set up for a perpetual search for order.  God is order--there's no searching, there's no questioning, it doesn't matter if you're a blade of grass or a gladiator, simply submit to him and you will be an unquestioned part of his kingdom.
 
Oh man, have they fucked with Gabriel in SMT.  Newsflash, not a chick.  Newflash, it's stupid to reiterate this image of the "trumpeter" when basically that's Gabriel's job to herald in the new age.  Gabriel spoke to each prophet, wouldn't it have made sense for HIM to have talked to one of the potential makers of the world and supported him or even "disillusioned" him into forming a world in compliance with God's message?  
 
Basically to cap this tantrum, I think the point is, A. read a some literature, make a game that won't further mutilate the general understanding of a lot of this stuff.  B. If the game is supposed to be about free choice, then yeah, Tallgeese is totally right, don't make a reason blatantly assholish.  Give it an integrity and intelligence it deserves instead of swaying the player into some bizarre counter-intuitive vaguely substantiated conclusion.

I just find it funny that they bitch and moan about these games (especially my dear Tallgeese), yet buy them up like a kid buying the last handful of caramels in a candy store (those things are damn good).
 
No offense guys, it's just lulz.

The tympanum at Foy is perhaps not the only thing to look at to get an idea about how people from the Middle Ages thought angels behaved.  There are other tympanums that depict Judgment day scenarios, it was kind of a phenomenon that occurred around 1100.  (Before that there was literally very little, almost no, architectural sculpture)  
 
I do think that in a way it is okay to bring today to these games--in fact that's a given since we have to reinvent these things to make games about them.  My problem is that while I enjoy playing them, I don't think they should be elevated to the level of "extremely thought-provoking" especially when the discussions people have are completely removed from the generators of the game in the first place.
 
Based on what you can see though is that the angels are part of God's army, more or less.  Christianity as it developed to this point honestly had a lot of militant aspects.  The vows a monk took for instance, obedience, chastity, and poverty are kind of similar to the vows of a soldier.  The imagined heavenly order is honestly just an aggrandized feudal system.
 
Today it is hard to rationalize a heavenly father who intends for hell, but in the middle ages this was, in my opinion at least, probably comforting.  It ensures that there is no possibility of overall good faltering to evil.  Evil is always a weak imitation of God. In the Tympanum you can see how this is reflected, with the hell mouth devouring sinners and hell being the only area with a good amount of activity.  The rest of the tympanum is ordered through implied architecture and a general understanding of the structure of heaven.  The angels are basically just extensions of God's jurisdiction.  Since this tympanum is depicting Judgment day, they are helping the righteous into heaven and fighting off devils that may interrupt this process.  
 
I think when we recognize God as forgiving, loving, etc, we are forgetting that that's really what Jesus is--not necessarily what God is.  God is much larger.  Today we tend to conflate Christ with God, and in the process completely remove any of the vengeance that God possessed in the process.  For a good part of Christianity, the old testament I think held just as much importance as the new testament, which honestly I think is what most Christians today pay attention to... if they look at scripture at all.  Judgment day kind of makes a complete circle with the old testament.  It brings back the vengeance, and in the old testament, if you didn't listen to the prophets, then yeah, you were pretty screwed and you went to hell (basically everyone).  Then we get Jesus and all of sudden all you need is faith to go to Heaven.  God is incapable of forgiving one sin, which is the sin of lost faith.  If you stop believing you are damning yourself and that sin will be "locked" to your soul (St Peter has two keys, one that opens the gate of heaven and "unlocks sins" from you, the other basically condemns you).  
 
To address Shodan's point: Yeah, it's pretty ludicrous that I am bitching a mean steak about this stuff.  I find the games to be fun, and unlike Tallgeese, I can still get a kick out of the story line. I mean, it's just annoying for me when people suddenly start to pull things out of these games that aren't there, or aren't right, and completely ignorant of where they came from (or about as informed as a wikipedia article).  That kind of pseudo-intellectual crap gets old.  It's still a video game; video games are good, and that makes it popcorn for my brain.  If I want to think, I'll go make art or read a book or something.  Otherwise, I am all for further developing carpal tunnel!

Your post only illustrates a certain point that Atlus JP is twiisting Christianity negatively...
 
Consider that the best armor on the Law Side is the JESUS SET.
 
Call me crazy, but the Biblical Jesus would 'NEVER' side with what SMT portrays his religion as.

Quote from Tallgeese on 05/26/08 at 03:19:35:

 
Of course he wouldn't. But like Shodan says, it's only a set of armor. After all, the Messians made that armor. None asked Jesus what he thinks about puting his name on that piece of equipment.   I think Jesus is much closer to ideal christianity than his father ever was. That's why ATLUS is not against christianity. They are only against the strict rules which the Old Testament represents. And the Old Testament is much closer to the Judeo religion. Japanese people have their sins, like my or your people too. But they never send missionaries to spread shintoism or zen buddhism by force. Their gouvernement is xenophobic, that's true. But not all Japanese dislike other nations. And I don't think that someone like Okada who has such deep knowledge and interests in other religions could be against this or that religion. He  has only a different point of view. After all, there are less than 1% christians in Japan. That's why the Japanese if interested in judeo-christianity can get a much more realistic picture about that religion. Because there's no propaganda. They don't even talk about christianity in public.

...Aleph, you DO realize that part of the method by which the Japanese became mobilized for the Second World War was a form of imposed statewide militant Shintoism, thereby eviscerating your religious point, right? Zen Buddhism also quite prominently supported the state military establishment of the time. You're making arbitrary and self-serving leaps of logic not based on much of anything, no offense. Apparently the book 'Zen at War' is quite enlightening on this subject.  
 
The people were apparently happy with it too, the only reason they abandoned this religion-backed militaristic stance is because they lost, plain and simple. Japan is just as capable of following archaic rules as everyone else, as much as Atlus JP would love for you to think otherwise from how they present Chaos.
 
It's not that they wouldn't spread their way of life to others, it's that they pretty much couldn't for a long time. Their nearest neighbor is China. The single reason they even managed to beat China best during the Sino-Japanese Wars was because Japan was basically modernized and well trained, while China... not so much.
 
Meanwhile, on the Jesus front, Law Hero in SMT1 is dressed like the Pope, the four archangels are described as based on Christian mythology in SMT3... et cetera. Considering the angels are supposedly based on the Christian mythology, where they are pretty much upstanding, if rigid, persons, and they are NEITHER of those things post-SMT1... yeah, I honestly don't think it was meant to just be a random namedrop. Of course, it is worth it to note that besides the armor, Jesus never showed up at all... except in P3.
 
Where: A) He sucked horribly as a Persona in practically every way, in the original game he was flat out terrible, in FES he was an obvious consolation prie if you didn't get Orpheus Telos, who is Messiah Plus Plus. B) His mythological description attempts to pass him off as a general messiah figure when he obviously is a Jesus reference (praying saints? Cross-pose when summoned? That Absorb Pierce joke?) C) He looks nothing like he is generally portrayed in a modern times. D) The guy who DOES look 'a LOT' like how Jesus in portrayed in modern times is actually one of the biggest bastards in the game!

I couldn't, because I can't even think of a game where Shinto is portrayed in a negative light either... meaning that I can't think of an American game that mentions it much at all.
 
That said, DnD seems to hold the Kara-Tur region (basically DnD Asia it looks) in decent regard, what with their superior weaponry... But I don't think Shinto is involved directly at all.

To Aleph: I wouldn't get ahead of yourself.  Christianity means nothing without the Old Testament, in my opinion.  Christ's death, in addition to allowing us salvation, opened the Judaic religion to the gentiles.  To cut down one is to cut down the whole.  Obviously its hard to reconcile God between the two testaments.  Obviously he seems to be a different entity entirely, but I wouldn't make the God of the old testament a truly one dimensional entity by saying he is bad, etc.  The angry God is the foundation for all Judeo-Christian belief, so you really can't cut him out of the picture ever.  My biggest problem with many of today's Christians is that they worship this good feeling entity, which is basically just an abbreviated idea of Christ, and don't really address any of the foundational stuff, which is where the religion's mythology gets interesting, and perhaps, a closer understanding of Western culture/morality can be examined.
 
Also, I don't really care what the Japanese view of Christianity is--it certainly isn't the most realistic one because they are taking it and interrupting it in a way that suggests A.) very little research, leading to convenient conclusions for a video game story and B.) YES, turning it into a propaganda of sorts, one that denounces a fairly large demographic of todays world as pig headed idiots.  NOW before you jump all down my back by saying most Christians are idiots, realize you are talking to a person who shredded his study Bible outside a Church screaming fuck God directly after Sunday school.  I've been there, done that, wear the tee-shirt.  It's pretty annoying to meet hardcore Christians, but have you ever tried to make a meaningful connection with a twit who thinks being an athiest is bad ass?  Maybe when you could die for it, but today I think it's a pretty indolent response to what life has to offer/its mysteries.
 
Also, back to the idea of the reasons, I think your idea that Musubi wouldn't hurt anyone is hilarious because it radically redefines what being human is.  It would lead to a world of isolated insane minds.  In my opinion, all of the reasons are bullshit, and the game is most fun when you take the cake and run with it and go fuck with the boss man.  That way you get the most out of the game play and you get to kill all those dumb asses that thought they had good ideas for a new world.
 
To Shodan:  Everyone is a hypocrite.  Get over it.  I'll give you that it's amusing that there's this big of a dispute over /game content/, but I find it really hilarious that for someone who is criticizing another on cultural sensitivity, you are describing the Japanese on a singularly one-dimensional level.  I think everyone here could benefit from ceasing to conflate Japanese and Atlus as one entity.  For god sake, it's absolutely retarded to compare disatisfaction with a game to WWII tactics and mentalities, which even then is completely stupid and offensive to think that that's synonymous with all Japanese culture and mindsets.  That's like saying Germany is just a bunch of Nazis, instead of pointing out that the third Reich was basically just a bubbling over of a collective mental illness that had been cultured in Germany since its genesis.  Why the hell do people in our generation still try to cling to the societal sicknesses of the 20th century?  I am so thrilled to see that we can regurgitate the cut and paste bullshit from our american history text books, because clearly our knowledge of foreign cultures is coming from wartime history, not much else.  (Maybe isolated facts from wikipedia?)  
 
That being said, Tallgeese isn't being xenophobic, he's being critical.  
 
There are like zero American games that I can think of that would even bother to include Shintoism.  Wait, there are like zero American games that are playable rpgs in my opinion, so nevermind.  Apples to oranges, my dear.
 
In my opinion, say what you want, but it's so easy to place blame on insensitive Americans. All I'm asking is that maybe these assholes read some Campbell, some Yeats, get it in their heads they are not just making games for a Japanese audience since obviously these things are now hitting everywhere that plays games.  You shouldn't make a game that claims to "draw from every world religion" when it simply processes every single one through an obvious filter.  If they want to use the excuse that it is gnostic, then all these different elements being introduced should be designed free of inherent bias.  Most world religions have huge overarching connections, yet I am continually disappointed when I encounter huge disconnects between these when the pieces are just waiting to be connected.  
 

Hey! Lay off of SHODAN. She knows me far better than anyone else here, half a decade in fact. She has no reason not to call me a hypocrite if she sees me as one, it's not like it's an undetestable trait that I specifically strive not to embody. She has no damn reason to want to have that.
 
SHODAN also knows that what I say about Atlus Japan I would almost certainly say about Japan in general, with unstated exceptions if I could ever find them of course. Popular Japanese culture is RIFE with bastardizations of Judeo-Christianity. The reason I harp on Atlus Japan so much though, is two-fold, which I think is what makes the difference:
 
1) I am irritated not only in that they do it, but in that Kaneko has said himself that the games emphasize free choice between the sides. I just don't think it's free choice when some of the choices are deliberately loaded by the developers to appear bad. It's like indoctrination, is it really free choice to do something if you're indoctrinated into it?
 
2) Somebody in Atlus Japan was asked if YHVH in SMT was the Judeo-Christian God. I believe it was Okada. He LIED when he said that YHVH in SMT was an amalgamation of the father gods of various religions. That honestly just reeks of a lie, because, for example, various other father gods, most notably Odin, appear in SMT and they act NOTHING like what YHVH is portrayed as. It just seems like a retarded dodge/lie to make...
 
Basically, I'm pissed that Atlus is pretentious. I might be a tad less pissed if they weren't.
 
But leave SHODAN alone Asura. I'm hoping that if she reads this she'll understand why I respond in this way, but if not, oh well. I just hate dishonesty and unfairness. She didn't say anything wrong considering how I act.
 
Anyhow, I will gracefully step out. I promised SHODAN I will no longer continue this arguing, and I intend to keep that word. The above is just an explanation as to why I'm so annoyed, and to say to leave SHODAN alone or you deal with me.

I agree with you Tallgeese, we should drop this topic. After all, this forum is about videogames, not politics or religion. I might be a little bit christophobic from some people's sight of view, however I feel no guilt about it. I got absolutely nothing against you or anybody else, as long as I'm not harmed. I'm against those radical clerics and belivers who sip poison in peoples hearts. We could discuss about ATLUS being christophobic or not for days (maybe that's precisely what they want us to do).  
But Tallgeese, you can't call somebody a liar, just because you think he's a one (even if I have to admit that you might be right about this one).  
However, I think he gave that interview right after releasing SMT2 in Japan, long before releasing SMT3 worldwide. There was no need for sucking up to the non-japanese audience. They released SMT3 10 years after.

Wow, that's too adorable.  Can we now vote for cutest couple on megaten!  Haha.

Quote from SHODAN on 05/27/08 at 06:15:36:

 
I like the gameplay! Pretty much it yeah.
 
Okami: By 'influenced by Buddhism' you mean the whole cyclical nature of the world, right? Or...?
 
What you suggest is possible, as Buddhism, unlike Shinto, was not homegrown in Japan, it was imported from China. This does not explain their love affair with Hinduism that has only been rising though.

...Stop being an ass, dude.

^ I Do enjoy the duel angel avatars you got going, I have to say. Who made them? They is snazzy.

Indeed! Did she model the angels after how you actually look or are they random?

I wish I had hair like that. ;_;
 
The hair color is mine though yeah.

Unfortunately, that falls apart after SMT2. See SMT3 and DDS.
 
They need to put our angels in. Kekeke.

Quote from 0kami7777 on 05/30/08 at 17:21:57:

 
Speaking of this, what was up with the guy who turned into Metatron but was going crazy throughout the whole fight?

Haha, God only knows?  I think that whole battle was just trying to be illustrate the duality of the atma: the asura mind and the human mind.  There was also the whole issue with the dead lover, which is the only way you get the item necessary to spark that encounter.  I don't know; I think it was pretty much of a bunch of bullshit?  All the angels do the same thing in DDS--act like crazy assholes that are more or less inherently more evil and without logic than their human counterparts.  I guess in the context of the asura, they're interesting fights, but I, again, think that Atlus could've done something more interesting with such substantial mythological figures.  Given that the angels in DDS all appear from out of control corrupt data (maybe even Metatron), it might make sense for them to be so blood thirsty.  Metatron less so, though, because in the junkyard, the asura/atma should really be as Angel puts it in the beginning, "Your true self."

So, I'll keep this thread alive a little longer to ask if anyone actually gets the whole Aradia thing. What's the difference between her the other gods that Isamu, Hikawa, and Chiaki summoned? Better yet, what the hell happened to poor Yuko?

All of the reasons except for the Neutral/QUIT FUCKING WITH THE WORLD YOU ASSHOLE GODS suck.

Quote from Eikichi Girl on 05/24/08 at 19:11:25:

 
People cannot fathom such things...there is no such thing as Utopia/Paradise with humans around.
 
Quote from Eikichi Girl on 05/24/08 at 19:11:25:

 
Demon.

...I fail to see what's wrong with Conceptions. If anything YHVH is basically right in pulling those off, no point is letting the same old stuff occur forever.

Yeah, but honestly, I think God is probably in a perpetual state of "willing it."  Hikawa was just like, "Honey are you in the mood," and God was like, "Hellz yea."  Then Yuko went all psycho virgin sacrifice on our asses, and you got a demon spawn gnawing through your eye.  
 
Don't deny it; you know you want it.
 
Obviously, humans ignite the conception, and humans fertilize the new world.  God is present, but there has to be a partnership between humans and divinity; and one in which I would be willing to say humans are more important in the equation.  They do all the work.  In the end the conception is a really good thing.  If God didn't have a conception for a while, I think he might be worried.   He might ask someone, "Can I has preggers? LOLZ?"  Just think of it on the terms of spontaneous abortions and lol cats and embrace it.

Depends on whether or not you gave them fancy feast for dinner.  Just think of Nekomata, and how she wanted to play in Shibuya.

I never liked any of the Reasons, thus why first playthrough I got NO FINAL BATTLE as I didn't go true demon. >>
 
Come on, they coulda' given you something... @@
 
Hmm, I think it's pretty much impossible to create a paradise for "everyone" as everyone has their own ideas of what paradise is, what they want and how they want others to act...

^ Which could also explain why I've seen more pro-Protestant Japanese media (such as Hellsing) than Catholic. I guess it's becuase Protestants are considered more liberal and moreakin to Buddhism in that there is no centralized powerhold on the religion like the Vatican.